First let me put a framework around this post. I am a 5 minute Christian. I have been a Christian just over 1 year. Also I am an analytical person. Some would call me an intellectual. So God talks to me in this way.
So, I was on the train reading about how when we graze our skin a scab form and underneath soft pink skin grows. Pretty simple. We all take it for granted.
You can't tell me that billions of years ago 'matter' exploded and evolved into the ability for grazed skin to form a protective coat and for fresh new skin to grow back. How incredibly complex is that! What are the chances of this, and the process of a caterpillar growing into a butterfly happening on the same rocky planet within the space of a relatively short period of time. Too big a chance. Only God could have created these crazy ideas!
7 comments:
John,
Thanks for your comment.
I think I can say we agree on the micro-evolutionary explanation. Things evolve. I have no problems with that.
However, this is not the same as the macro-evolutionary process...and the theories behind 'creation' cannot be extrapolated from micro-evolution.
I admit I am not very knowledgable in a lot of things, but I think I am intellectual and even scientific in that I keep an open mind. I see the 'evolution theory' is partly good science but also just another world view that people hold...often without really questioning it in part or in whole.
So, happy to chat about 'evolution' either as a scientific theory or a world view. It's a fascinating topic that hopefully even idiots like me can start to comprehend.
myles
Evolution is a well-accepted explanation of life on earth. Refer to http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/new_introductory_articles.htm for a list of links that provide an extensive introduction.
The point is, however, that you have invoked an entity, namely God, that is even more complex than the world is he alleged to have created. This type of argument begs the question of an explanation of God.
I would also recommend http://www.philosophyofreligion.info as an excellent website detailing many arguments for and against the existence of God. If you browse through this site, an educational experience in itself, you will probably come to the realisation that no form of intellectual argument is persuasive enough either way.
That leaves evidence and personal experience as pointers to God. These have limitations, too.
I agree evolution explains life on earth...but it does not explain who created it.
I agree that God is more complex than the earth he created.
I probably agree that it takes more than an intellectual analysis to prove God (faith helps!).
Evidence for God, Jesus, the Bible is available - as indeed are personal experiences. (This could lead us back to the 'healing scabs' evidence) :-)
Questions evolution does not touch on, and that help me to ask if God exists are:
- What is my ultimate reality and purpose?
- What is good? Evil?
- Is there a basis for morality?
I am still working through these things (a cool intellectual exercise in itself) and I am pretty sure where the answers are leading towards...
A basis for morality.
Is God moral simply because he says so, or because he conforms to some objective external moral standard?
If God is moral on his own authority (the ultimate form of "might is right"), then how do we assess whether he is moral or not other than by accepting his say so? If God is moral because there is an obvious objective standard of morality, then obviously morals can exist apart from God.
Also, do morals make any sense to a single person living on an island? Morality is really about a group of people (or animals, animals behave with moral awareness as you know) behaving cohesively as a group. A group of people or society with appropriate moral standards is going to survive much longer than one where force and fear completely dominate.
It seems that the moral argument is really not related to the existence of God.
You see, if you deceive yourself into thinking that you have a set of intellectual arguments that support a theist position, then what will happen when counter arguments demolish them?
As you hint, belief in God really comes down to faith. But what would you prefer: faith or evidence?
Things do come down to faith. Faith in our senses, faith in historical evidence. Faith in our personal experiences and thoughts.
If the evidence were concrete then why would we need faith? Some say if God gave us solid evidence then we could not love God with true love, but rather with automatic robotic devotion. God knows what true love is...and he knows true love takes faith.
If God does exist then its totally feasible he sets the standard for love and morals. That's what the whole Bible is about!
Also I believe that humans do follow a set of morals that are set outside us, and outside our culture. Over the centuries and across all cultures basic morals have been consistent - love, hate, murder, child abuse.
Better people than me have definitely linked the moral arguement to the existence of God (C.S. Lewis is a good start).
I have no fear of counter arguements - I am comfortable that my open intellect can assess anything thrown my way. And I have yet to read/hear/see anything that comes close to putting a chink in the theism arguement.
One may see from the blog that my wife is pregnant. Seeing the little baby on the ultrasound I feel a deep sense of love and a bond. I also see a healthy baby boy with a brain, heart, blood.
When I think of the evolution process I wonder how we can get from a bacteria filled ooze to have deep feelings of love. I wonder what came first in evolution. The brain? The heart? Blood?
Some people say it takes more faith to believe that evolution created complex life, than it does to believe a God did.
Sorry to butt in to a wonderful debate but I have a point to share. I am a Christian. Absolutely, from the inside out.
Myles said "Some say if God gave us solid evidence then we could not love God with true love, but rather with automatic robotic devotion." This struck me. I think God put this doubt and fearfulness to except something more than what we can see into our minds. He placed this opposing "evidence" on earth, these opposing minds and hearts and voices, to make it a harder road to truly love him. After all, he could have easily made so we automatically love him. He could come any day, any moment and just reveal himself to the world, "Hello I'm God, yes it's true blah blah", but thats not faith, thats not seeking him, that not free-will.
I have seen miracle after miracle, I have felt a love and joy that cannot be mistaken for anything else. You, John, have not felt what God is. You do not understand. Why do you not want to believe in God? Why do you doubt and rely on evidence and theories? Despite all this, despite your anger at people like me and Myles, God still loves you. Ferociously. Intensely. I a way that no one on this earth can comprehend. Don't you want to know more about such a thing that claims that?
hey anonymous...this debate kinda finished a while ago - but butt in!
thanks for your comments. it's an issue that took me a while to get my head around...and I believe (it's in the bible too) that God WANTS us to test our faith. He wants us to ask questions. But he also wants us to be open enough to have faith and love him.
Sadly, a lot of the intellectuals I mix with are too closed to make the first step.
Only by building a relationship with them, and being open to challenges do I get anywhere.
Keep going hard!
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